Does Putin have to Die: Interview with Ilya Ponomarov Episode 3

Does Putin have to Die: Interview with Ilya Ponomarov Episode 3

This article is the transcript of a live ‘interview’ show done regularly by journalist Gregg Stebben and Ilya Ponomarev, the only member of the Russian Parliament to vote against Putin in the annexation of Crimea and now a Russian dissident and Ukraine supporter. Please excuse any transcript errors in this article.

Gregg Stebben and Ilya Ponomarev Interview: Does Putin Have to Die?

Gregg: Hey everybody. Welcome to ‘Does Putin have to die?’ With Ilya Ponomarov and, uh, there he is. Let’s let Ilya in. Hold on a sec. Ilya, you should be getting that, uh, little popup here. Any moment now, and, we’ve got a lot to talk about including picking up the story from yesterday. That was such a great cliffhanger, really, that’s where you left it. We lost you right in the middle of such a great story. So we’re gonna carry on from there. Hey there…

Ilya: (inaudible cracking sound)…

Gregg: Uhoh. We’re getting Donald Duck again.

Ilya: (inaudible cracking sound)

Gregg: Let’s see what happens…

Ilya: …

Gregg: Well, okay. Uh, give me a minute. Looks like we have to train Ilya not to use his earbuds, apparently. How about we re-invite you, Ilya, if you’re still there? Let’s see what we can do here… (pause)

Ilya: Hello guys.

Gregg: Yes…

Ilya: Um, sorry for the glitch. When I’m logging in with my AirPods on, it’s, uh, you know, it starts talking gibberish. I don’t understand why, but we should, uh, we should complain to, uh, Apple, you know…

Gregg: Can we complain to Putin?

Ilya: You know, uh, if it was Elon Musk, I would say yes, maybe then we should write to Putin, you know. But, uh, with Apple, no, I think…

Gregg: Okay, fair enough.

Ilya: They are cautious…

Gregg: Alright. So, um, I want to ask you a couple of things quickly about the events today, and then I want to get back to what we were talking about yesterday, which is the origin of the Congress coming up. Um, is there anything you wanna say about Putin?

Ilya: You know, uh, to me it was pretty boring. Uh, but what is interesting is, um, that he is moving more and more, to the rhetoric that was typical for anti-globalist movements. Uh, we, for all the criticism of neoliberalism and liberal globalization and multi-culturalism and these sort of things, so, uh, in his arsenal, traditionally, it was more right conservative rhetoric. And people, uh, who he was usually sighting, they were right-wing thinkers. Uh, but it’s already, I would say like two or three months. When he’s using more and more left-wing arsenal and charms Uh, when he’s speaking, obviously this guy is neither left nor right. He doesn’t have any views. Uh, he’s just a kleptocrat. But it’s interesting because I think that, uh, he kind of starts to understand that these, uh, straightforward plain manure. Right when conservatism is not selling anymore, uh, because it’s, uh, not his agenda. Mm-hmm. . And what he wants to do, is he wants to unite people, uh, who were, uh, traditionally anti-imperialist and then, he wants to mobilize people against the United States. Uh, using this rhetoric and, and these terms, and that’s why I was really sorry when I, uh, heard about this letter. By left progressives in the States, uh, which was kinda revoked and cancelled. But, uh, it was genuine in how it was written and the very fact that it was written. Uh, speaks a lot about the general mood, and ideas that are circling in this particular part of the political spectrum in the United States. And I will say it’s pretty much, uh, the same in other parts of the world. And being myself from this part of the political spectrum, I really feel sorry because people, totally confuse their core values.

Gregg: Yeah. And uh, I was trying to pull up, but for some reason, I’m not getting it. This was the political caucus from the US Democratic something political con, caucus.

Ilya: Caucus. The progressive caucus was the progressive caucus. It was progressive focus Yes. Was arches and, you know, uh, this, this type of people. Yeah.

Gregg: And, so in the US we have an expression for that. You’re sort of describing Putin himself, he doesn’t believe in anything. He’s just looking for whatever will work. In the US, we have an expression that’s a little crude, but you know, I’ll throw enough shit on the wall, maybe something will stick. It kind of feels like he’s throwing shit on the wall.

Ilya: That’s absolutely correct. That’s absolutely correct! Those are very, uh, shitty and lousy ideas. Um, and the very problem with them is actually a lot of things that he’s saying. Uh, in general, they’re kind of fair, but the framing and the overarching idea, um, that inspires him to say these words is totally off. And that’s why, you know, if you throw a piece of shit in the, uh, barrel of honey, it would be a barrel of shit.

Gregg: Yes.

Ilya: And that’s exactly what’s happening with what he is saying.

Gregg: Yeah, Alright. So let’s leave that there for today. Um, do you want to say anything about the TV host? And I’m not going to be able to pronounce her name right, but it’s like Cace, socheck (Ksenia Sobchak).

Ilya: (Laughs)…

Gregg: (Laughs). If you don’t know what I’m talking about, everybody just go Google Russian TV host with an Israeli passport. Uh, but what are your thoughts on what happened there?

Ilya: (Laughs)…You know what actually happened there to my mind, uh, is a catfight between two female celebrities.

Gregg: Mm…

Ilya: Uh, there is, one quite well-known person in Russia. She is Georgian. Her name is Tina Kandelaki. Uh, and she is also the same type, uh, you know, media celebrity for you, to get an idea. Um, Ksenia Sobchak is a kind of Paris Hilton personnel. And Tina Kandelaki is like Kim Kardashian,

Gregg: But Sobchak actually ran for president, right?

Ilya: Yeah. Uh, that happened. But, uh, she’s a, you know, she’s a media animal, so she likes hype. And, uh, you know, when the protest started in 2011, she immediately started dating one of the prominent Russian political activists. You know, just to get inside the…

Gregg: Yeah…

Ilya: …the movement and, and to collect the hype. Hmm. On tv, uh, she is doing very provocative, uh interviews in general. You know she is a socialite. She likes to provoke people. She deliberately provokes people. Uh, she became famous in Russia, for being, uh, a host in a reality show, which was extremely cynical. Uh, you know, people seducing each other, and it’s a symbol in a rush of a bad taste on the tv. It’s like when everybody says dome, that’s, uh, the name of the reality show been translated as the house. Uh, when they’re saying this, all Russians are, you know, uh, we hate it.

Gregg: Uh, if they hated it, why did they watch it?

Ilya: They hated but they watched it. Yes. And, uh, it made her rich and popular. Um, so, uh, that’s her type of personality. Tina is a little bit more, of uh, I would say a balanced person. Uh, I would say Tina is extremely cynical but very smart. She is moderately, uh, opposition-leaning, but she is also a relative of Vladimir Putin. Vladimir Putin is her godfather. She’s the daughter of, uh, former Vladimir Putin’s boss, not only subchapter, the mayor of St. Petersburg. And, uh, her former personal bodyguard right now, is the chief of the National Guard of Russia, and the closest ally of Froman Kir. He is also one of the key people in, uh, the security establishment for Vladimir Putin. She’s very connected to VM Putin, but her views, because again, her audience is more towards the opposition, so she likes to speak moderately. You know, opposition but also, very cynical statements. And that’s exactly how, how she ran for president. And uhh…

Gregg: So let me just cut in for a sec. In some ways, you’re describing her exactly the way you just described Putin as just being completely opportunistic with their needs…

Ilya: Exactly. She is exactly the same personality. That’s it. But that’s, uh, you know, that’s, uh, overwhelming. The majority of the Russian elite, they’re exactly that way. Okay? Uh, they cultivate this, you know, they’re proud that they have no ideas that, uh, they’re ideaphobic. You know, Uh, Tina is a different personality. Uh, she is the CEO of one of the most visible Russian, uh, TV sports networks like ESPN. Like the Russian version of ESPN. Um, and, uh, she’s pro-Putin clearly, but, but moderately. You know, so she’s not radical, uh, Putin is, but she’s kind of more, more pro-Putin openly. And she’s married to the Vice President of Ross Technology. That’s a major Russian military-industrial producer. Hmm. What actually happened is Tina Kandelaki ‘s, husband, Soge Chamber also closed the light to Putin. One of his inner circle people, uh, has written to the police, that Sobchak, editor in chief, is blackmailing him for publicizing black PR statements in their media. Uh, and in Russia right now, everybody is so afraid of publishing, just anything, so it’s a lot of like a self-censorship thing. Uh, so it’s way more popular to collect money, not for publishing something, but for not publishing something. They all like, you know, all these remaining journalists, they’re collecting money from powerful people that if you pay as a certain retainer, will say nothing about him.

Gregg: So it’s a black…. it’s a form of blackmail using media…

Ilya: It’s a form.. Yeah, it’s a form of blackmail. Okay. But, uh, you know, ironically, you know they usually pay people to pay for the PR.

Gregg: Yes…

Ilya:..and in this case people, Yeah. So nobody is speaking about them, you know, because right now in Russia, being a public person is a dangerous thing. It’s a dangerous thing! They were proposing, uh, to, uh, (inaudible name) us to pay them a whooping 150,000 US dollars as an annual retainer to not say anything about himself and Ross technology. And he knew about it and they decided to write to the police. And when this editor in chief, uh, came to collect the money, they actually ceased him when he was taking the money from the chambers of people. And so he was thrown to jail and, sub jock immediately evaporated and, and left Russia. And also made it in a very cynical way because, uh, she, again, being a very moderate opposition person, and many people, uh, take her as a kind of a triumph force within the opposition. So she was very active. Criticizing an oppositionist, uh, for leaving Russia. Uh, she was doing it in a very nasty way. And, um, she was saying, Ah, you know, while all those, Uh, cowards uh, you know, useless people, uh, these idiot Egyptians and jerks, uh, are now competing to get Israeli passport. I, myself standing here on the bank of this river and on the shore of Moscow River looks nothing like Jordan. And I’m, uh, sitting here in a very nice restaurant, which looks nothing like those lousy Israeli restaurants because I am never getting an Israeli passport. I’m so much happy with my Russian passport. And when she was crossing the border right now, so she left her Russian passport, but she entered Europe on the Israeli Passport. Which she made exactly in the same month when she was criticizing others, for,uh, getting Israeli passports. And so she was, it was so hypocritical. That’s why… Yes. Uh, the whole, uh, social networks of Russia totally exploded. What the hell! She is a bitch!

Gregg: Well, and I have to say it’s a lot more of a story than I was expecting. Frankly.

Ilya: Sorry, yes it is, uh, I think otherwise it would not be clear, you know, what the buzz is all about. But, uh, yeah, it’s a catfight between Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian, You know…

Gregg: I was expecting more of a freedom fighter fleeing for life after making, you know, critical reporting on Putin. And, you know, frankly, What you gave us was pretty damn good! So I’m not disappointed. Alright. There were two things, I was gonna ask you about today.

Ilya: Yeah. There is a question. Where is my family? Uh, almost all my family, left Russia, after they stayed for a very long time. I’m very lucky that absolutely no members of my family even distant relatives are pro-war. They all are antiwar. Uh, but obviously everybody who has my last name, we had to evacuate them at the, uh, beginning of the invasion in March.

Gregg: Hmm. And we’re not gonna talk about where they are. Uh, for obvious reasons.

Ilya: Yeah. Thank you. Yes, they are safe. Yes.

Does Putin have to Die? By Ilya Ponomarev and Gregg Stebben

Gregg: So, Yesterday we were talking and you got cut off. There were two things you said that I want to follow up on. One I’m gonna save for tomorrow, but we were talking about the sort of origins of the people’s Congress that’s coming up on November 4th. And, um, by the way, if you missed this, you can find out more about it at rusdep.org and I will put a link in the chat box before we’re done here today. But, uh, we were talking about the origins of the Congress and I was asking you, you know, where did this idea come from? And you gave us a great explanation and it’s archived on the show page so you can go see it there if you missed it. But then you started saying that there’s competition, and I think where you were going, was that you’re not the only one who’s thinking about the future of Russia. But I think where you were going was that you know, your group has a relationship with the military to enforce the legitimacy of the group that’s different from others who might be thinking they could also be leaders of a free Russia. Am I setting that up right?

Ilya: Yeah. Uh, probably because frankly speaking, I don’t remember what my idea was. In the recent three weeks because of the preparation of, uh, the Congress, I am literally sleeping, you know, only two to three hours a day. And that’s why people, uh, things start to sleep out of my mind completely. Do you know why? I don’t remember what we were speaking about precisely, but, uh, I think that where I was heading to is, uh, that we are not, just about talking and we already have a military arm in, in Ukraine. So we are trying to create a full ledger of alternative power structures to the modern-day, Putin structure. And obviously, the cradle at the centre is this transitional parliament. Uh, which is being created, but this transitional parliament needs to create a transitional administration, which would be the executive branch.

Gregg: Yes…

Ilya: And obviously it would be supported by, uh, Russian military. Uh, Um, Russian military, who are fighting in Ukraine. That’s what I want to say. So not, uh, Russian. Russian, but, uh, Russian military, who are fighting in Ukraine alongside the Ukrainian army. Against Putin, uh, and obviously, the partisan network in Russia. Yes. Uh, it’s really that we are about action, so we want our decisions at the end of the day to be enforced. Um, and, uh, again, we would not be just sitting and reaching for the Ukrainians to liberate our country. Yeah.

Gregg: Alright. We said this show was going to last five or 10 minutes. We’ve gone a little longer than that because we had a good story about a catfight that’s always worth, you know, a little extra time. Um, we’ll follow up tomorrow. Thanks for being here, Ilya. I’m going to keep talking a little bit, but you know, I’m gonna uh, let you go and get back to your work on the Congress.

Ilya: Thank you, guys. Thank you very much and thanks, Simon. Thank you!