Does Putin Have to Die: Interview with Ilya Ponomarov Episode 2

Does Putin Have to Die: Interview with Ilya Ponomarov Episode 2

This article is the transcript of a live ‘interview’ show done regularly by journalist Gregg Stebben and Ilya Ponomarev, the only member of the Russian Parliament to vote against Putin in the annexation of Crimea and now a Russian dissident and Ukraine supporter. Please excuse any transcript errors in this article.

Gregg: Hello guys. Welcome. Yeah, there you go. Let’s all fix our air.

Ilya: That’s right, that’s right. It’s a …

Gregg: Beauty show after all… And we are a couple of you. All right. So, uh, you know, we’re trying to keep these shows short, so I’m going to get right to it. Uh, and I have hundreds of questions for you, about the upcoming First Congress of People’s Deputies of Russia. So, yeah, you know, we’re learning, so here’s what I want to know. Was this always part of your plan, or did this idea of holding this Congress just evolve, given the circumstances around?

Ilya: You know, it’s a good question. And also you would be the first to learn. Uh, that’s an inside story. Uh, I was thinking for already quite a while about an alternative centre of legitimacy. Um, and, uh, this trail of thought originated in the sanctions and policies because one of the problems is that, uh, Russia has a lot of frozen assets in the west, and we are talking right now about as much as 400 billion. Uh, and they could be used for Ukraine. To restore the damaged infrastructure. And that’s especially important now when, uh, you know, the west steadily supplies different contamination. Uh, but right now, certain things that need to be just constructed, like different power equipment for the power plants and, you know, these kinds of things.

Mm-hmm. , um, and, uh, it all needs funding, which is very slow too. Uh, from the West. So I was coming from the idea that it’s quite obvious to use these funds to finance Ukrainian restoration. To confiscate those funds would require a lot of core decisions. And that’s painfully slow. That can take. Yes. Um, and, uh, the money is needed now and I was consulting, uh, with different people who are in charge of the sanctions policies internationally, in the US, in the UK and in Europe. And they all were telling me, more or less the same thing. You know, we cannot make this decision without Russia, uh, because only with the court. But you know what? If there would be some other Russians who would be telling us, you know, let’s do this and that, we may listen to them and then let Putin, argue whether they had the authority to say this. But, you know, we will decide whom to listen to. Mm. And that was a coming idea. So we, we probably need to have this group of Russians, but uh, they need to have a legitimate representation of Russia and how that’s possible. If, uh, in Russia for quite a while, there were no elections. Yes. Uh, and my original idea was that actually there are two deputies in Russia. It’s, myself and, uh, Nazi GoodCo, whose mandate was terminated prematurely. We got our mandate through the elections that were recognized. Um, and they were recognized by the international community, by international observers, but at the same time, they were terminated prematurely.

So they didn’t expire, but they were terminated. I think maybe that’s the potential, source of legitimacy. And I started talking to different people. But, uh, during my last trip to Europe, I met with certain Lithuanian officials and they gave me the idea because there is a so-called forum of free Russia, uh, which is organized by Gary Casper Fund, which is regular. Um, uh, being conducted in villas in, uh, Lithuania Capital. Um, and, there is a growing disappointment because it’s a nice congress, nice convention, uh, nice forum, but, uh, it’s going nowhere, you know. So people meet but no decisions and no, uh, tangible results of those forums. And they were saying, you know, maybe you would, uh, grow balls and make one step further.

Gregg Stebben and Ilya Ponomarev Interview: Does Putin Have to Die?

Gregg: I just want to make an observation. I don’t think you needed to grow balls. I think the balls were already…

Ilya: Yeah. So, um, and that’s how we came to this idea, we have this mandate yeah, in a different time, but at the same time, that’s a real source of legitimacy. And we started to look for a place, um, obviously, uh, the most, uh, interesting place for us, uh, would have been Ukraine, but, uh, to get inside Ukraine for Russians right now. It’s a great pain and, uh, no flights. And, uh, then they, with a hundred per cent so that they would not be able to come back to Russia. So it’s, you know, many different reasons why Ukraine is not so good. But, uh, the second best, uh, in this situation is Poland, uh, which is next door, and, uh, which doesn’t have any, Russia-related event. Uh, but, uh, Polish authorities are very active in supporting Ukraine. They have a vested interest, um, to defend, uh, against, uh, potential Putin’s aggression. Uh, they’re very, uh, helping, uh, to Ukraine. And, uh, we decided that would be the, uh, the best place, to do it.

Gregg: So I’ll… Make an observation here and tell me if it makes sense to you. Um, you know, you and I have spent a lot of time talking and chatting because we wrote a book, you know, essentially, I took your book and helped form it for the Western audience, right? So, a lot of investment of time, a lot…

Ilya: …Of questions. It’s you and Google Translate who wrote the book, and I
was just, you know…

Does Putin have to Die? By Ilya Ponomarev and Gregg Stebben

Gregg: Well, you invested in way more ways around it. I, think you invested way more time than you thought you were going to, at the beginning, but in the end, I think we created a very good product. Let’s just say, or message, but I don’t know if you remember this, uh, but many times over WhatsApp and you know, often it was late in the night for you or late in the night for me. And then when we were in DC. I kept asking you over and over again because you would say there’s going to be this interim government, and then when Putin’s gone, it’s going to, you know, it’s going to become the government. And I don’t know if you remember how many times I told you, How is that going to happen? We addressed this, I think in a very honest way in the book. I’m not going to give it away. You got to read the damn thing if you want to find out. But when I heard about the Congress, this light bulb went off in my head, because I realized you found a way to create that interim government. In front of the public. Yes. So now Russians are going to get used to it, you know, the rest of the world is going to get used to it. You as members of Congress are going to be known. And so when Putin is gone, obviously you’re the interim government. You, your congress, and your colleagues have been prepping the world for this, including Russians so that there’s no confusion about it or having to explain it. It’s just a natural evolution of what, what you’re beginning on November 4th.

Ilya: Well, uh, you know, that would be a lot of competition. I’m sure there will be. And, uh, that’s why I think what is very important is that we are not just the only, opposition centre who is actually thinking about legitimacy and doing things about legitimacy, but we’re also thinking about the military force to support the legitimacy. Hmm… And the power structures, uh, to support it and, Uh, we have, uh, now military units which are fighting alongside with Ukrainian army in Ukraine. And, uh, that’s obviously the best training in fighting and, uh, what a…

Gregg: Terrible place to lose. Ilya… Okay, he’s back. Can’t hear you. Lost. It’s bad. Okay. Oops. All right. Well, this may be, uh, This may be a heck of a tease for tomorrow’s show. Uh, I think let’s just wrap it up here. You know, we said this was going be a five or a 10-minute show. It’s been about 10 minutes. So let me talk for a few minutes and we’ll pick up this story.

Clearly an incredibly important story. We’re watching history unfold in front of us, and, you know, how exciting is it to hear Ilya describing how this came to be? Uh, I’m so invested in this and I know you are as well. It is so exciting for me to see this happening in a way that is full of transparency and the word he used for legitimacy. And you can begin to see, and we’ll get more details tomorrow about how this all makes sense and brings this sense of, of, what’s the word I want…of, of. Of, Oh gosh! There’s a word. I can’t think of what it is, but it just, it… You can see how the world can rally behind what they’re doing so that when Putin is gone, or even to motivate Putin to be gone because now it’s not a black hole and a mystery. There’s, there’s a body of people. With legitimacy who are ready to step in and fill those roles. So, um, we’ll pick that up tomorrow.